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I
hold on to your hats because we're back
on the Sputnik orbiting the world with
me George Gallow and me Gayatri and a
big thanks to Neil Clark for holding the
port not since Lazarus or even JC
himself has there been a miraculous
comeback like the one performed this
month by Jeremy Corbin dead and buried
when the contest began the next occupant
of in Downing Street by the time it
finished in the eyes of most
observers including those observers
whose unremitting hostility even hatred
towards Corbin had left him apparently
dead and buried in the first place but
will save their bushes at least for now
one man who never lost the faith is the
shadow Justice secretary Richard Bergen
MP whose performances to date have left
not a few people speculating that he is
a future leader of the labor party
himself I'm glad to see
he joins us now congratulations on a on
a great uh campaign and the greatest
comeback as I said since Lazarus at what
point did you realize that actually this
surge could take you at least to the
doorstep of number 10 well I realized
when I was door knocking in my
constituency and also in marginal
constituencies where there were plenty
of people saying they never voted before
but they were voting labor and they
could list our policies without me
telling them the policies they knew them
already and they were passionate about
our policies from the1 pound in our
minimum wage Banning Zero's contracts uh
taking the railways into public
ownership was it your policies that did
it or was it the Tor policies that
scared the horses I mean the idea that
uh old people were going to have their
homes confiscated and so on what how
much of it was a positive and how much
was a a negative uh response well I
think that the conservatives were so
confidence because of the polls at the
beginning of the campaign that they felt
they could be clear about what their
objective is they didn't have to Sugar
the pill so they were saying exactly
what they believed in and offering very
little for example with older people
they thought we've got these votes in
the bag therefore we can take these
people for granted therefore we can
actually treat them with contempt and it
backfired on them but without Jeremy's
leadership and without that Manifesto of
clear policies for the many not the few
I don't think we've had that we wouldn't
have had that surge that we did have
well let me turn to that because uh your
friend and my friend uh in my case
almost 40e friend Jeremy Corbin was as
George Bush might put it
misunderestimated by virtually everyone
over there and certainly the fourth
estate which became a sink estate really
uh why did they get that so wrong how
did they convince themselves that Corbin
was a Dead Man Walking only to see him
resurrected because some people who do
live in the media bubble some people who
do live in the Westminster bubble feel
are a set of rules that can never be
broken a set of orthodoxies that are
there and they couldn't understand or
contemplate the feeling out there in the
country that people are sick and tired
of politics by the same old rules and so
that's why it caught them by surprise
some of them spend too much time
orbiting the bars and cafeterias of
Parliament
and not out there as we do as
campaigners and MPS knocking on doors
and listening to people and what they've
got to
say
the subtext from John Curtis for example
Professor Curtis uh nonetheless made
some quite telling reading uh just in
the last few days he says the labor
support is middle class socially liberal
anti- brexit
and Young and the conservatives the
diametric opposite including crucially
on the the question of class Working
Class People according to Professor
Curtis are gravitating away from labor
just as quickly as middleclass people
professional people socially liberal
people are headed in Labor's Direction
that's quite a profound dichotomy if uh
if Tru
uh to what extent was it your experience
that it is true well my constituency uh
voted by over 60% to leave the European
Union is a workingclass constituency and
we recorded our highest vote for almost
40 years the highest labor vote for
almost 40 years but we all have to
listen carefully to what people like
John Curtis say because we didn't quite
win this general election the government
certainly didn't win it uh she lost her
majority but we need to build further
support and that has to be Upon A
Coalition of people with Progressive
principles and by that I don't mean
other parties I mean people in the
country uh socialists social Democrats
and people who can be sometimes
described as liberals as well so we need
to expand and deepen our support for the
next general election indeed that was
the historic uh labor Coalition that
delivered big change in this country in
1945 for example to a lesser extent in '
64 and ' 66 a coalition of the working
class and its allies middle class allies
intellectual allies uh and so on and uh
you can't win without that but if you
lose the workingclass bit of it I'm not
quite sure how solid the base is then
for labor maybe not to win an election
but to successfully govern for a an
extended period of time well I think
that the labor Manifesto for the many
not the few actually brought class
politics if you want to call it that the
politics of class back onto the
mainstream agenda these were bread and
butter economic policies in the
interests of workingclass people who
been let down by the neoliberal free
market Madness consensus of the last 30
or 40 years so in that essence you can
say that Jeremy coin's leadership and
this Manifesto have saved socialism have
saved social democracy in this country
as a mainstream political force we need
to now build upon that talk about how
we're going to fundamentally trans
transform the economy because what labor
has to be about in a bread and butter
way is a fundamental and irreversible
shift in power and wealth in favor of
working people and their families as the
uh labor program for Britain in 1974 put
that uh very well remembered um what's
it like now over there is there a lot of
Humble Pie being eaten uh by those at
least
172 who had spent much of the last two
years stabbing Jeremy Corbin in the back
is there a cleavage now one hopes there
is between those who didn't support
Corbin because they didn't think that
that kind of politics could win and
those who didn't support Corbin because
they don't actually agree with those
kind of politics uh as a dichotomy that
would be an entirely legitimate one to
what extent is that the case well it was
wonderful to go into Parliament and see
Jeremy walk into the chamber and walk
into the Parliamentary lab part meeting
L that evening and get a standing
ovation a genuine Standing Ovation from
labor MPS and it is ironic I suppose uh
it was a good job that those who tried
to get rid of Jeremy Corbin didn't
succeed because if they had have
succeeded they wouldn't have been there
many of them in Parliament either
because uh many people's majorities were
boosted many people's seats were saved
by his leadership and by his policies as
well as their work themselves but
there's always been in the labor party
um differences of ideology differences
of tactics some think for example that
Gordon Brown reluctantly came to the
conclusion that new labor was the way
forward because he thought that was the
only way to get into Power whereas
others think that Tony Blair on the
other hand believed in that as an
ideological end in of itself rather than
as a tactical compromise but nothing
succeeds like success itself the labor
Ms uh are feeling good because they're
at back in back in with boosted
majorities and there's plenty of new MPS
well over 30 for example that are in
there now and people are behind Jeremy
people are behind Jeremy and I think
it's good when people admit they've been
wrong we all get it wrong uh sometimes
and I think for example it's really good
when Owen Smith in a television
interview said that he had to take his
hat off to Jeremy and realize that he
got it wrong about Jeremy Corin and
that's one of the reasons it's so great
to have him back in the shadow cabinet
and will it be the last time that we
heard then from the 172 well we need to
hear all our voices all their voices
working together because that general
election campaign shows what labor can
achieve when the MPS are working
together and are singing from the same
himym sheet we were United we're getting
Fair representation as Fair as you can
get in the Press because the rules in
the election period and we jumped from
25% in the polls to 40% in the polls
gained 3 million votes since the last
general election and I believe the next
general election whenever it may be we
can finish the job but not only get a
labor government but get one of the
labor governments that will be
remembered in history for being truly
transformative and what we need to be
transformative about is the economy so
that we are the servants in government
of the majority of working-class people
in this country so what happens next uh
treesa May is uh staying in power
dangling by the by the threads of an
orange sash uh as I put it the other day
is that sustainable will will she go and
be replaced by a more strong and stable
Tory someone like uh David Davis for
example are you expecting an election
soon or are you preparing for perhaps
one after the brexit negotiations are
finished well we're ready for an
election whenever it may be but I should
guess that the conservatives although in
their heart of hearts want to get rid of
Theresa May because she's put plenty of
their colleagues on the Dole or in even
better paid jobs Maybe they'll want to
get rid of her they'll also really from
a tactical point of view you want to to
keep her on because a quick change of
leader will lead to even greater calls
from the general election would seem
unjustifiable in the eyes of the public
to swap leaders without a further
election but we've got to make sure that
people don't think that the problem with
the concerted government is is Theresa
May the problem with the concerted
government is the concerted government
and its economic policy and the way is
on the side of the privileged view not
the majority and that will not change
even if the Cosmetics of the leadership
changes and they get someone else so we
shouldn't fixate upon trees may as an
individual it has to be about the
ideology of austerity and cuts and
privatization this government has
pursued over the last seven years it's
going to be quite a shock though for
British people English people in
particular because in Scotland some of
the same issues uh arise for English
people to realize that they're being
governed by the grace and favor of uh
the people who will be out marching and
the marching season of the 12th of July
it'll throw an unwelcome Spotlight
actually on the relationship between
Britain and the north of Ireland don't
you think yeah and and also uh Theresa
May should be responsible and heed the
warnings of those that have said uh that
she needs to bear in mind in the Good
Friday agreement it says that the
British government has to be neutral
Arbiter and can't show favor to one side
or uh the other and of course uh Theresa
May and her friends were scar in the
Press about the alleged links between
Jeremy and organizations uh in the in
Northern Ireland and now we see that
Theresa May is trying to Cobble together
a deal with a party in whose
constituencies letters were received by
constituents advising them to vote from
organizations that are prescribed
organizations inde armed armed elements
as we used to call them well
congratulations again you've done a
fantastic uh job and uh I'm very pleased
to say that you are back in place firmly
in the shadow cabinet maybe in the
cabinet pretty soon thank you very much
Richard Bergen coming up next in the
blue corner it's Tory heavyweight former
Minister and mayoral candidate Steve
Norris don't miss
it welcome back to Sputnik when I heard
the former mayor of London and now
foreign secretary Boris Johnson
appearing to die on BBC Radio 4 this
week after the Queen's speech I got to
wondering how bad does it have to get
for the Tories before they send for our
next guest long serving Tory Minister
and twice London mayoral candidate for
the conservatives Steve Norris their
loss is our gain because I get to ask
him right now where did it all go wrong
for the Tory party Steve Well it went
wrong at a pretty big time in a lot of
ways I think it started with uh with
maybe a mistaken decision to even call
the election in the first place she had
said Mrs may had said many many times
she wasn't going to do it and in doing
it she was obviously driven by the fact
that she was said to be 21 points ahead
in the polls I think we should know
enough about the polls to know that that
would be you know that that that was
never going to last in Practical terms
the manifesto was desperately mishandled
it doesn't matter whether the big idea
on social care was the right idea as
most people think it is or not you can't
throw a huge idea of that like that into
the middle of an election campaign
without doing what we politicians call
rolling the pitch first you know you
with a big idea like that you've got to
build a consensus around it before it
could be a a centerpiece of a Manifesto
worse in my view was that having put it
out there and taken the Flack for it she
then made the Fatal decision to reneg on
it to go back on it actually as she was
the strong and stable candidate she
should have been advised to say stick
with it tough it out show that you are
whatever you are strong and stable and
you could link that by saying you know
we're not giving you nice fancy answers
like don't worry kids will write your
student debt off we are serious people
with serious answers to serious
questions none of that transpired and
then I think you know you could add to
the to that the fact that her
unwillingness even to be into intered by
Jeremy Vine you know a radio 2 genial DJ
come election uh comedy routine you know
a really nice easy guy I've been
interviewed by Jeremy many many times
never once asked me a difficult question
refusing to even do that in contrast to
Jeremy Corbin who of course was in his
element and and everybody has to admit
had a great election himself that
contrast was really dire add to that
young people I got that wrong I really
got wrong the idea that for once young
people would come out and vote and yet
they did not in massive numbers but many
many more than we've had in previous
elections and all of that I think plus
as you know as all of this Unwound
during seven weeks of an election you
know maybe maybe I should have said and
answered your question you should have
had a 3- we four-week election Max and
not seven it just meant that she was
constantly on the back foot he was on
the front foot and you know maybe we
shouldn't have been as surprised as I
certainly was and most people in this
country were when we heard what the exit
pole was saying our old parliamentary
colleague the late Dennis Healey uh I
recall talking of some military
Adventure or other that uh from his
experience at anzio as a beach master
that uh no plan survives first contact
with the Enemy and uh in our last
conversation uh on this very program I
did make the point to you that Jeremy
Corbin may have weaknesses on the
Parliamentary floor although they seem
to be uh improving but the one thing he
was good at was campaigning in the
streets and that turned out to be a bit
of a revelation to his own enemies
inside his own party as much as anyone
else absolutely dead right um Jeremy did
very well in the campaign he was in his
element and he exploited it but he had
the great advantage that his uh that his
principal opponent was so frankly ful at
it you and I both kick with the left
foot it's uh pretty uh uh unpleasant
spectacle to have Her Majesty's
government hanging by the tassel of an
orange sash how long can that last five
years five years George because the
reality is the Democratic unionist party
is not coming into this negotiation with
Mrs May simply to decide how many inches
of gold should be plated onto the
streets of Belfast actually only one
half of Belfast one half um exactly
quite right but it's of course that they
are utterly terrified by the prospect of
what they see as a shin feane supporting
prime minister in Downing Street um that
is you know their worst nightmare and so
my view is whatever this negotiation is
that's going on at the moment the
outcome is very clear they do not want
another general election if they don't
back the queen speech uh in in in this
uh uh in the the next forthcoming vote
in the next week or so if they don't
approve the conservatives uh budget at
least in outline and there is another
election that is the worst possible
outcome for them so you know uh would
they be your ideal partner in any
relationship such as this absolutely not
uh but will they stick with the
conservatives out of necessity the way a
drunken man sticks to a lampost you
believe me they will so the parliament
Will Last 5 Years and I suspect you may
be correct about that the same cannot be
said for the Prime Minister surely uh
she wanted an election to strengthen her
hand in the brexit
negotiations uh and lost she lost the
election Corbin didn't entirely win it
but she lost it uh and now she's easy
meet for the European governments and
the commission the Tories will have to
replace us surely well I think there's
two things to say one is that your
analysis is correct she lost and there's
no getting away from the fact that she
went into this election with an overall
majority and she emerge from it without
one um whether Mr Corbin won as Emily
thornbery seems to imagine uh or not is
really not the issue for her there are
many Tor MPS who hurt there are many
Tory MPS who hold her personally
responsible and frankly it's hard to
dodge that bullet and therefore she's
not staying because they love her she's
staying for the moment because of the
absence of an obvious successor uh
because of the real worry that if we
change leaders again to soon this begins
to look really like Panic the Tories
have always said to be pretty ruthless
about changing their leaders and we are
we tend to get on with the job if we
think it needs doing I don't see that
happening early personally I think that
unless there's another of those events
like the Dreadful business at grel Tower
that can so destabilize any government
any local Authority as that did and
understandably did if there are more
events like that then it's possible that
she'll have to go very quickly but I
suspect that absent that she could well
be there for a year and possibly two so
I don't see her personally surviving
longer than a couple of years but I'd be
surprised if she went earlier unless
some other shock emerges which really do
demand an instant change well uh as Mr
McMillan said events events deby I've
used that phrase so often it's not what
you plan it's what smacks you on the ear
yes it's what you don't expect as
McMillan also said it's not one damn
thing it's one damn thing after another
and we had three terrorist attacks in
the course of the campaign and now we've
had this horrific incident at uh
Grenville I wish had more time to go
into that but let me give you uh a
suitable alternative David Davis a
highly principled man uh a Libertarian
man a man that stood up for Liberty and
in fact uh sacrificed his first front
bench career over that a man from a
workingclass background Council house
single parent upbringing a soldier who
can strangle a man with piano wire with
his own bare hands
not bad if you're fighting Isis and
Al-Qaeda and a solid brexit man why
wouldn't the Tories go for someone like
that my view is that in a couple of
years time they very probably will what
I think they've got to do is to make
sure that Boris Johnson who having been
by Far and Away the runaway certainty to
lead the party then stabbed in the front
by Michael Gove to whom I would would
personally award a hereditary dukedom
for his services to our nation um then
later you know discovered actually not
to be quite as amusing when he has to
have a serious job to do still as
evidence from a uh from a interview he
gave Only Yesterday hardly our most
skilled interview E I think we have to
just get to the point where the party's
membership
recognize that somebody like David Davis
is a far better bet than Boris Johnson
you know that if the result of the last
maril election had the last uh
leadership election with the Tory party
had been that Theresa May and Boris
Johnson both went to the party's
membership to decide who should lead us
Theresa would have got 70% of the MPS
Boris would get 70% of the membership
it's reminiscent ironically of how
Jeremy became leader of the labor party
whatever his colleagues fought in
Parliament the me ship out there said
this is the man we want we've got to in
a sense let the next year or so
transpire in which I think David Davis's
qualities will come to the four and he
will be in my view the pretty obvious
successor to Mrs may but it will have to
be on the basis that by then the party
is no longer uh you know longing for the
man who they say young people you know
will uh you know somehow engage with I
think engage with laughing if I were a
supporter of David Davis I'd be
dispatching His Radio 4 near-death
experience uh Boris Johnson's near-death
experience I'd be Distributing it widely
in the party absolutely Steve Norris is
always pleasure to talk to you about
these great events thanks for coming on
board the
sputnick and now it's your turn to tell
us what you think through the portals of
social media what's rattling gri a lot a
lot but from it I can tell you that Ryan
says the left is United blism is dead
and Corbin looks like a PM in Waiting
May is being held hostage by DP and the
backbenchers untenable whereas Wayne Max
for Palestine says during the general
election mainstream media and the Tories
lambasted Corbin for his attempts at the
peace process yet they jump straight
into bed with the dup #
Hypocrites well I must at the risk of
reigning on the parade of supporters of
Jeremy Corbin agree with Steve Norris
it's by no means certain that this
Parliament will not run its term for the
reasons that he mentioned and also the
ticking clock of Jeremy Corbin in 5
years time will be 73 years old uh he's
a young uh old man but people will start
to say he is too old for the job and
that's all the tweets we've got time for
today which alas means that's the end of
the show but stay in touch with us on
Facebook Sputnik on Russia Today and
Instagram and Twitter rtor Sputnik well
it's goodbye from me gatri and from me
George Galloway it's been marless
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