1
00:00:02,250 --> 00:00:07,380
[Music]

2
00:00:14,639 --> 00:00:17,639
I

3
00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:41,320
hold on to your hats because we're back

4
00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:44,160
on the Sputnik orbiting the world with

5
00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:46,160
me George Gallow and me Gayatri and a

6
00:00:44,160 --> 00:00:49,480
big thanks to Neil Clark for holding the

7
00:00:46,160 --> 00:00:51,680
port not since Lazarus or even JC

8
00:00:49,480 --> 00:00:53,719
himself has there been a miraculous

9
00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:56,960
comeback like the one performed this

10
00:00:53,719 --> 00:00:59,559
month by Jeremy Corbin dead and buried

11
00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:01,480
when the contest began the next occupant

12
00:00:59,559 --> 00:01:03,720
of in Downing Street by the time it

13
00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:06,080
finished in the eyes of most

14
00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:08,560
observers including those observers

15
00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:10,720
whose unremitting hostility even hatred

16
00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:13,119
towards Corbin had left him apparently

17
00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:16,000
dead and buried in the first place but

18
00:01:13,119 --> 00:01:18,200
will save their bushes at least for now

19
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,960
one man who never lost the faith is the

20
00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:23,799
shadow Justice secretary Richard Bergen

21
00:01:20,960 --> 00:01:26,200
MP whose performances to date have left

22
00:01:23,799 --> 00:01:28,439
not a few people speculating that he is

23
00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:30,439
a future leader of the labor party

24
00:01:28,439 --> 00:01:33,640
himself I'm glad to see

25
00:01:30,439 --> 00:01:36,720
he joins us now congratulations on a on

26
00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:40,680
a great uh campaign and the greatest

27
00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:44,399
comeback as I said since Lazarus at what

28
00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:47,240
point did you realize that actually this

29
00:01:44,399 --> 00:01:49,520
surge could take you at least to the

30
00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,880
doorstep of number 10 well I realized

31
00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,479
when I was door knocking in my

32
00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,159
constituency and also in marginal

33
00:01:52,479 --> 00:01:57,079
constituencies where there were plenty

34
00:01:54,159 --> 00:01:58,600
of people saying they never voted before

35
00:01:57,079 --> 00:02:00,280
but they were voting labor and they

36
00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,280
could list our policies without me

37
00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,960
telling them the policies they knew them

38
00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,399
already and they were passionate about

39
00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:08,239
our policies from the1 pound in our

40
00:02:05,399 --> 00:02:09,440
minimum wage Banning Zero's contracts uh

41
00:02:08,239 --> 00:02:12,360
taking the railways into public

42
00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:15,440
ownership was it your policies that did

43
00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:18,599
it or was it the Tor policies that

44
00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:20,560
scared the horses I mean the idea that

45
00:02:18,599 --> 00:02:23,959
uh old people were going to have their

46
00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:26,120
homes confiscated and so on what how

47
00:02:23,959 --> 00:02:28,640
much of it was a positive and how much

48
00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,959
was a a negative uh response well I

49
00:02:28,640 --> 00:02:31,400
think that the conservatives were so

50
00:02:29,959 --> 00:02:33,440
confidence because of the polls at the

51
00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,800
beginning of the campaign that they felt

52
00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,840
they could be clear about what their

53
00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,840
objective is they didn't have to Sugar

54
00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,920
the pill so they were saying exactly

55
00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:43,080
what they believed in and offering very

56
00:02:40,920 --> 00:02:44,519
little for example with older people

57
00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,239
they thought we've got these votes in

58
00:02:44,519 --> 00:02:47,959
the bag therefore we can take these

59
00:02:46,239 --> 00:02:49,800
people for granted therefore we can

60
00:02:47,959 --> 00:02:52,239
actually treat them with contempt and it

61
00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:54,720
backfired on them but without Jeremy's

62
00:02:52,239 --> 00:02:56,680
leadership and without that Manifesto of

63
00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,920
clear policies for the many not the few

64
00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,560
I don't think we've had that we wouldn't

65
00:02:57,920 --> 00:03:03,200
have had that surge that we did have

66
00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:05,879
well let me turn to that because uh your

67
00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:10,480
friend and my friend uh in my case

68
00:03:05,879 --> 00:03:12,680
almost 40e friend Jeremy Corbin was as

69
00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:15,400
George Bush might put it

70
00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:18,040
misunderestimated by virtually everyone

71
00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:22,040
over there and certainly the fourth

72
00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:26,440
estate which became a sink estate really

73
00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:29,439
uh why did they get that so wrong how

74
00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:32,560
did they convince themselves that Corbin

75
00:03:29,439 --> 00:03:34,879
was a Dead Man Walking only to see him

76
00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,760
resurrected because some people who do

77
00:03:34,879 --> 00:03:39,680
live in the media bubble some people who

78
00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:41,400
do live in the Westminster bubble feel

79
00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,560
are a set of rules that can never be

80
00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:46,159
broken a set of orthodoxies that are

81
00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:48,120
there and they couldn't understand or

82
00:03:46,159 --> 00:03:50,360
contemplate the feeling out there in the

83
00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,879
country that people are sick and tired

84
00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:54,959
of politics by the same old rules and so

85
00:03:52,879 --> 00:03:56,840
that's why it caught them by surprise

86
00:03:54,959 --> 00:03:59,360
some of them spend too much time

87
00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,239
orbiting the bars and cafeterias of

88
00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,159
Parliament

89
00:04:00,239 --> 00:04:04,159
and not out there as we do as

90
00:04:02,159 --> 00:04:05,480
campaigners and MPS knocking on doors

91
00:04:04,159 --> 00:04:06,480
and listening to people and what they've

92
00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,879
got to

93
00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:13,360
say

94
00:04:08,879 --> 00:04:16,600
the subtext from John Curtis for example

95
00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:19,440
Professor Curtis uh nonetheless made

96
00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:23,080
some quite telling reading uh just in

97
00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:28,400
the last few days he says the labor

98
00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:30,360
support is middle class socially liberal

99
00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:34,280
anti- brexit

100
00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:37,479
and Young and the conservatives the

101
00:04:34,280 --> 00:04:41,360
diametric opposite including crucially

102
00:04:37,479 --> 00:04:43,440
on the the question of class Working

103
00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:46,680
Class People according to Professor

104
00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:49,960
Curtis are gravitating away from labor

105
00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:52,240
just as quickly as middleclass people

106
00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:56,680
professional people socially liberal

107
00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:59,199
people are headed in Labor's Direction

108
00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,639
that's quite a profound dichotomy if uh

109
00:04:59,199 --> 00:05:02,880
if Tru

110
00:05:00,639 --> 00:05:06,120
uh to what extent was it your experience

111
00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:09,400
that it is true well my constituency uh

112
00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:11,479
voted by over 60% to leave the European

113
00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:13,600
Union is a workingclass constituency and

114
00:05:11,479 --> 00:05:15,240
we recorded our highest vote for almost

115
00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:17,759
40 years the highest labor vote for

116
00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,160
almost 40 years but we all have to

117
00:05:17,759 --> 00:05:21,840
listen carefully to what people like

118
00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,680
John Curtis say because we didn't quite

119
00:05:21,840 --> 00:05:25,400
win this general election the government

120
00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:28,080
certainly didn't win it uh she lost her

121
00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:30,800
majority but we need to build further

122
00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:32,919
support and that has to be Upon A

123
00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,479
Coalition of people with Progressive

124
00:05:32,919 --> 00:05:36,199
principles and by that I don't mean

125
00:05:34,479 --> 00:05:39,000
other parties I mean people in the

126
00:05:36,199 --> 00:05:40,520
country uh socialists social Democrats

127
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,240
and people who can be sometimes

128
00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:45,000
described as liberals as well so we need

129
00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:47,199
to expand and deepen our support for the

130
00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:49,880
next general election indeed that was

131
00:05:47,199 --> 00:05:52,080
the historic uh labor Coalition that

132
00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:54,960
delivered big change in this country in

133
00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:59,240
1945 for example to a lesser extent in '

134
00:05:54,960 --> 00:06:02,400
64 and ' 66 a coalition of the working

135
00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:06,000
class and its allies middle class allies

136
00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:08,400
intellectual allies uh and so on and uh

137
00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:11,319
you can't win without that but if you

138
00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:14,120
lose the workingclass bit of it I'm not

139
00:06:11,319 --> 00:06:17,800
quite sure how solid the base is then

140
00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:20,400
for labor maybe not to win an election

141
00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:22,680
but to successfully govern for a an

142
00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:24,280
extended period of time well I think

143
00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,440
that the labor Manifesto for the many

144
00:06:24,280 --> 00:06:28,560
not the few actually brought class

145
00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,520
politics if you want to call it that the

146
00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:32,800
politics of class back onto the

147
00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,759
mainstream agenda these were bread and

148
00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,599
butter economic policies in the

149
00:06:34,759 --> 00:06:39,240
interests of workingclass people who

150
00:06:36,599 --> 00:06:42,240
been let down by the neoliberal free

151
00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:45,479
market Madness consensus of the last 30

152
00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:48,000
or 40 years so in that essence you can

153
00:06:45,479 --> 00:06:50,800
say that Jeremy coin's leadership and

154
00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:53,199
this Manifesto have saved socialism have

155
00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:55,400
saved social democracy in this country

156
00:06:53,199 --> 00:06:57,919
as a mainstream political force we need

157
00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:59,599
to now build upon that talk about how

158
00:06:57,919 --> 00:07:01,800
we're going to fundamentally trans

159
00:06:59,599 --> 00:07:03,479
transform the economy because what labor

160
00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:06,039
has to be about in a bread and butter

161
00:07:03,479 --> 00:07:08,319
way is a fundamental and irreversible

162
00:07:06,039 --> 00:07:11,400
shift in power and wealth in favor of

163
00:07:08,319 --> 00:07:14,720
working people and their families as the

164
00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:18,800
uh labor program for Britain in 1974 put

165
00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:21,599
that uh very well remembered um what's

166
00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:26,160
it like now over there is there a lot of

167
00:07:21,599 --> 00:07:27,000
Humble Pie being eaten uh by those at

168
00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,840
least

169
00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:33,360
172 who had spent much of the last two

170
00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:36,120
years stabbing Jeremy Corbin in the back

171
00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:39,120
is there a cleavage now one hopes there

172
00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:41,400
is between those who didn't support

173
00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:44,360
Corbin because they didn't think that

174
00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:46,479
that kind of politics could win and

175
00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,159
those who didn't support Corbin because

176
00:07:46,479 --> 00:07:51,360
they don't actually agree with those

177
00:07:48,159 --> 00:07:53,800
kind of politics uh as a dichotomy that

178
00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:56,039
would be an entirely legitimate one to

179
00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:58,840
what extent is that the case well it was

180
00:07:56,039 --> 00:08:01,000
wonderful to go into Parliament and see

181
00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,440
Jeremy walk into the chamber and walk

182
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,039
into the Parliamentary lab part meeting

183
00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,479
L that evening and get a standing

184
00:08:04,039 --> 00:08:09,800
ovation a genuine Standing Ovation from

185
00:08:06,479 --> 00:08:11,639
labor MPS and it is ironic I suppose uh

186
00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,560
it was a good job that those who tried

187
00:08:11,639 --> 00:08:14,879
to get rid of Jeremy Corbin didn't

188
00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,919
succeed because if they had have

189
00:08:14,879 --> 00:08:18,960
succeeded they wouldn't have been there

190
00:08:16,919 --> 00:08:21,560
many of them in Parliament either

191
00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:23,759
because uh many people's majorities were

192
00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:25,960
boosted many people's seats were saved

193
00:08:23,759 --> 00:08:28,240
by his leadership and by his policies as

194
00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,560
well as their work themselves but

195
00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:33,240
there's always been in the labor party

196
00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:36,000
um differences of ideology differences

197
00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,880
of tactics some think for example that

198
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,719
Gordon Brown reluctantly came to the

199
00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,159
conclusion that new labor was the way

200
00:08:39,719 --> 00:08:42,800
forward because he thought that was the

201
00:08:41,159 --> 00:08:44,279
only way to get into Power whereas

202
00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,040
others think that Tony Blair on the

203
00:08:44,279 --> 00:08:48,640
other hand believed in that as an

204
00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:50,920
ideological end in of itself rather than

205
00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:53,560
as a tactical compromise but nothing

206
00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:56,160
succeeds like success itself the labor

207
00:08:53,560 --> 00:08:58,160
Ms uh are feeling good because they're

208
00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:00,279
at back in back in with boosted

209
00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:02,279
majorities and there's plenty of new MPS

210
00:09:00,279 --> 00:09:05,680
well over 30 for example that are in

211
00:09:02,279 --> 00:09:07,079
there now and people are behind Jeremy

212
00:09:05,680 --> 00:09:08,640
people are behind Jeremy and I think

213
00:09:07,079 --> 00:09:11,440
it's good when people admit they've been

214
00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,560
wrong we all get it wrong uh sometimes

215
00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,320
and I think for example it's really good

216
00:09:12,560 --> 00:09:16,560
when Owen Smith in a television

217
00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:18,320
interview said that he had to take his

218
00:09:16,560 --> 00:09:20,040
hat off to Jeremy and realize that he

219
00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,480
got it wrong about Jeremy Corin and

220
00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,279
that's one of the reasons it's so great

221
00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,680
to have him back in the shadow cabinet

222
00:09:23,279 --> 00:09:27,760
and will it be the last time that we

223
00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:30,120
heard then from the 172 well we need to

224
00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:32,839
hear all our voices all their voices

225
00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:35,519
working together because that general

226
00:09:32,839 --> 00:09:37,360
election campaign shows what labor can

227
00:09:35,519 --> 00:09:39,560
achieve when the MPS are working

228
00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,839
together and are singing from the same

229
00:09:39,560 --> 00:09:43,760
himym sheet we were United we're getting

230
00:09:41,839 --> 00:09:45,800
Fair representation as Fair as you can

231
00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:48,160
get in the Press because the rules in

232
00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:51,959
the election period and we jumped from

233
00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:54,000
25% in the polls to 40% in the polls

234
00:09:51,959 --> 00:09:55,800
gained 3 million votes since the last

235
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:58,320
general election and I believe the next

236
00:09:55,800 --> 00:10:00,040
general election whenever it may be we

237
00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,800
can finish the job but not only get a

238
00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,959
labor government but get one of the

239
00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,120
labor governments that will be

240
00:10:02,959 --> 00:10:06,800
remembered in history for being truly

241
00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,480
transformative and what we need to be

242
00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:11,279
transformative about is the economy so

243
00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,880
that we are the servants in government

244
00:10:11,279 --> 00:10:16,640
of the majority of working-class people

245
00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:20,519
in this country so what happens next uh

246
00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:23,079
treesa May is uh staying in power

247
00:10:20,519 --> 00:10:27,120
dangling by the by the threads of an

248
00:10:23,079 --> 00:10:30,040
orange sash uh as I put it the other day

249
00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:33,320
is that sustainable will will she go and

250
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:36,320
be replaced by a more strong and stable

251
00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:38,920
Tory someone like uh David Davis for

252
00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:42,800
example are you expecting an election

253
00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:45,760
soon or are you preparing for perhaps

254
00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:47,120
one after the brexit negotiations are

255
00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,720
finished well we're ready for an

256
00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:52,240
election whenever it may be but I should

257
00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,959
guess that the conservatives although in

258
00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,880
their heart of hearts want to get rid of

259
00:10:53,959 --> 00:10:57,880
Theresa May because she's put plenty of

260
00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,920
their colleagues on the Dole or in even

261
00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,760
better paid jobs Maybe they'll want to

262
00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:03,279
get rid of her they'll also really from

263
00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,639
a tactical point of view you want to to

264
00:11:03,279 --> 00:11:07,720
keep her on because a quick change of

265
00:11:05,639 --> 00:11:09,440
leader will lead to even greater calls

266
00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,440
from the general election would seem

267
00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:13,880
unjustifiable in the eyes of the public

268
00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,720
to swap leaders without a further

269
00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,040
election but we've got to make sure that

270
00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,800
people don't think that the problem with

271
00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,360
the concerted government is is Theresa

272
00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:22,240
May the problem with the concerted

273
00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,920
government is the concerted government

274
00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:27,000
and its economic policy and the way is

275
00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:29,360
on the side of the privileged view not

276
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:31,040
the majority and that will not change

277
00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:33,839
even if the Cosmetics of the leadership

278
00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:35,480
changes and they get someone else so we

279
00:11:33,839 --> 00:11:36,760
shouldn't fixate upon trees may as an

280
00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,720
individual it has to be about the

281
00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,240
ideology of austerity and cuts and

282
00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,040
privatization this government has

283
00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:44,120
pursued over the last seven years it's

284
00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:46,240
going to be quite a shock though for

285
00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:48,399
British people English people in

286
00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:52,279
particular because in Scotland some of

287
00:11:48,399 --> 00:11:54,279
the same issues uh arise for English

288
00:11:52,279 --> 00:11:57,920
people to realize that they're being

289
00:11:54,279 --> 00:11:59,639
governed by the grace and favor of uh

290
00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:02,200
the people who will be out marching and

291
00:11:59,639 --> 00:12:04,000
the marching season of the 12th of July

292
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,240
it'll throw an unwelcome Spotlight

293
00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:08,079
actually on the relationship between

294
00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:10,800
Britain and the north of Ireland don't

295
00:12:08,079 --> 00:12:12,560
you think yeah and and also uh Theresa

296
00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,920
May should be responsible and heed the

297
00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:16,760
warnings of those that have said uh that

298
00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,720
she needs to bear in mind in the Good

299
00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,959
Friday agreement it says that the

300
00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:24,320
British government has to be neutral

301
00:12:20,959 --> 00:12:27,839
Arbiter and can't show favor to one side

302
00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:29,600
or uh the other and of course uh Theresa

303
00:12:27,839 --> 00:12:32,959
May and her friends were scar in the

304
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:36,600
Press about the alleged links between

305
00:12:32,959 --> 00:12:38,880
Jeremy and organizations uh in the in

306
00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,839
Northern Ireland and now we see that

307
00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:43,600
Theresa May is trying to Cobble together

308
00:12:40,839 --> 00:12:46,160
a deal with a party in whose

309
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:49,440
constituencies letters were received by

310
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:51,399
constituents advising them to vote from

311
00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:54,120
organizations that are prescribed

312
00:12:51,399 --> 00:12:55,760
organizations inde armed armed elements

313
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,360
as we used to call them well

314
00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:01,000
congratulations again you've done a

315
00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:03,519
fantastic uh job and uh I'm very pleased

316
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:05,720
to say that you are back in place firmly

317
00:13:03,519 --> 00:13:08,360
in the shadow cabinet maybe in the

318
00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:11,199
cabinet pretty soon thank you very much

319
00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:13,440
Richard Bergen coming up next in the

320
00:13:11,199 --> 00:13:15,440
blue corner it's Tory heavyweight former

321
00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:18,399
Minister and mayoral candidate Steve

322
00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,399
Norris don't miss

323
00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:27,320
it welcome back to Sputnik when I heard

324
00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:30,000
the former mayor of London and now

325
00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:33,000
foreign secretary Boris Johnson

326
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:35,560
appearing to die on BBC Radio 4 this

327
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:38,079
week after the Queen's speech I got to

328
00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:40,279
wondering how bad does it have to get

329
00:13:38,079 --> 00:13:43,079
for the Tories before they send for our

330
00:13:40,279 --> 00:13:45,320
next guest long serving Tory Minister

331
00:13:43,079 --> 00:13:47,880
and twice London mayoral candidate for

332
00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:50,360
the conservatives Steve Norris their

333
00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:52,880
loss is our gain because I get to ask

334
00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:55,120
him right now where did it all go wrong

335
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,880
for the Tory party Steve Well it went

336
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,680
wrong at a pretty big time in a lot of

337
00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:01,639
ways I think it started with uh with

338
00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:03,519
maybe a mistaken decision to even call

339
00:14:01,639 --> 00:14:05,720
the election in the first place she had

340
00:14:03,519 --> 00:14:08,279
said Mrs may had said many many times

341
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:10,399
she wasn't going to do it and in doing

342
00:14:08,279 --> 00:14:13,000
it she was obviously driven by the fact

343
00:14:10,399 --> 00:14:15,120
that she was said to be 21 points ahead

344
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,959
in the polls I think we should know

345
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,880
enough about the polls to know that that

346
00:14:16,959 --> 00:14:21,800
would be you know that that that was

347
00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:24,920
never going to last in Practical terms

348
00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:26,759
the manifesto was desperately mishandled

349
00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,720
it doesn't matter whether the big idea

350
00:14:26,759 --> 00:14:32,320
on social care was the right idea as

351
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:34,839
most people think it is or not you can't

352
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,800
throw a huge idea of that like that into

353
00:14:34,839 --> 00:14:38,959
the middle of an election campaign

354
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:41,240
without doing what we politicians call

355
00:14:38,959 --> 00:14:42,759
rolling the pitch first you know you

356
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,600
with a big idea like that you've got to

357
00:14:42,759 --> 00:14:47,519
build a consensus around it before it

358
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:50,199
could be a a centerpiece of a Manifesto

359
00:14:47,519 --> 00:14:53,399
worse in my view was that having put it

360
00:14:50,199 --> 00:14:56,399
out there and taken the Flack for it she

361
00:14:53,399 --> 00:14:59,320
then made the Fatal decision to reneg on

362
00:14:56,399 --> 00:15:02,120
it to go back on it actually as she was

363
00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:04,000
the strong and stable candidate she

364
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:06,800
should have been advised to say stick

365
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:09,440
with it tough it out show that you are

366
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:11,600
whatever you are strong and stable and

367
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,959
you could link that by saying you know

368
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:16,120
we're not giving you nice fancy answers

369
00:15:13,959 --> 00:15:18,440
like don't worry kids will write your

370
00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,880
student debt off we are serious people

371
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:23,399
with serious answers to serious

372
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:24,880
questions none of that transpired and

373
00:15:23,399 --> 00:15:27,240
then I think you know you could add to

374
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:29,680
the to that the fact that her

375
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:34,880
unwillingness even to be into intered by

376
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:38,920
Jeremy Vine you know a radio 2 genial DJ

377
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:41,240
come election uh comedy routine you know

378
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:43,519
a really nice easy guy I've been

379
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,680
interviewed by Jeremy many many times

380
00:15:43,519 --> 00:15:48,920
never once asked me a difficult question

381
00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:51,079
refusing to even do that in contrast to

382
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:53,720
Jeremy Corbin who of course was in his

383
00:15:51,079 --> 00:15:55,720
element and and everybody has to admit

384
00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:58,600
had a great election himself that

385
00:15:55,720 --> 00:16:01,680
contrast was really dire add to that

386
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:03,959
young people I got that wrong I really

387
00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,639
got wrong the idea that for once young

388
00:16:03,959 --> 00:16:08,079
people would come out and vote and yet

389
00:16:05,639 --> 00:16:10,040
they did not in massive numbers but many

390
00:16:08,079 --> 00:16:12,240
many more than we've had in previous

391
00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:14,240
elections and all of that I think plus

392
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:17,399
as you know as all of this Unwound

393
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:19,440
during seven weeks of an election you

394
00:16:17,399 --> 00:16:20,880
know maybe maybe I should have said and

395
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,000
answered your question you should have

396
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:25,519
had a 3- we four-week election Max and

397
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,560
not seven it just meant that she was

398
00:16:25,519 --> 00:16:30,199
constantly on the back foot he was on

399
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,680
the front foot and you know maybe we

400
00:16:30,199 --> 00:16:33,240
shouldn't have been as surprised as I

401
00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,279
certainly was and most people in this

402
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:38,199
country were when we heard what the exit

403
00:16:35,279 --> 00:16:41,040
pole was saying our old parliamentary

404
00:16:38,199 --> 00:16:43,120
colleague the late Dennis Healey uh I

405
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:45,920
recall talking of some military

406
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:49,839
Adventure or other that uh from his

407
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:53,079
experience at anzio as a beach master

408
00:16:49,839 --> 00:16:55,759
that uh no plan survives first contact

409
00:16:53,079 --> 00:16:58,399
with the Enemy and uh in our last

410
00:16:55,759 --> 00:17:00,319
conversation uh on this very program I

411
00:16:58,399 --> 00:17:02,199
did make the point to you that Jeremy

412
00:17:00,319 --> 00:17:04,240
Corbin may have weaknesses on the

413
00:17:02,199 --> 00:17:07,199
Parliamentary floor although they seem

414
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:08,959
to be uh improving but the one thing he

415
00:17:07,199 --> 00:17:11,760
was good at was campaigning in the

416
00:17:08,959 --> 00:17:14,280
streets and that turned out to be a bit

417
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:16,319
of a revelation to his own enemies

418
00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:19,199
inside his own party as much as anyone

419
00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:20,919
else absolutely dead right um Jeremy did

420
00:17:19,199 --> 00:17:23,079
very well in the campaign he was in his

421
00:17:20,919 --> 00:17:25,559
element and he exploited it but he had

422
00:17:23,079 --> 00:17:29,360
the great advantage that his uh that his

423
00:17:25,559 --> 00:17:31,919
principal opponent was so frankly ful at

424
00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:36,880
it you and I both kick with the left

425
00:17:31,919 --> 00:17:39,039
foot it's uh pretty uh uh unpleasant

426
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:41,000
spectacle to have Her Majesty's

427
00:17:39,039 --> 00:17:44,080
government hanging by the tassel of an

428
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:47,280
orange sash how long can that last five

429
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:50,400
years five years George because the

430
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:52,559
reality is the Democratic unionist party

431
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:56,120
is not coming into this negotiation with

432
00:17:52,559 --> 00:17:58,159
Mrs May simply to decide how many inches

433
00:17:56,120 --> 00:18:00,520
of gold should be plated onto the

434
00:17:58,159 --> 00:18:04,360
streets of Belfast actually only one

435
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:06,880
half of Belfast one half um exactly

436
00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:10,360
quite right but it's of course that they

437
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:13,600
are utterly terrified by the prospect of

438
00:18:10,360 --> 00:18:16,960
what they see as a shin feane supporting

439
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:20,799
prime minister in Downing Street um that

440
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:23,120
is you know their worst nightmare and so

441
00:18:20,799 --> 00:18:24,840
my view is whatever this negotiation is

442
00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:27,520
that's going on at the moment the

443
00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:29,799
outcome is very clear they do not want

444
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:33,400
another general election if they don't

445
00:18:29,799 --> 00:18:36,440
back the queen speech uh in in in this

446
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:38,640
uh uh in the the next forthcoming vote

447
00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:41,400
in the next week or so if they don't

448
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:43,600
approve the conservatives uh budget at

449
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:46,360
least in outline and there is another

450
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:49,559
election that is the worst possible

451
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:52,039
outcome for them so you know uh would

452
00:18:49,559 --> 00:18:55,440
they be your ideal partner in any

453
00:18:52,039 --> 00:18:56,720
relationship such as this absolutely not

454
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,440
uh but will they stick with the

455
00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:01,559
conservatives out of necessity the way a

456
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:04,480
drunken man sticks to a lampost you

457
00:19:01,559 --> 00:19:06,960
believe me they will so the parliament

458
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:09,720
Will Last 5 Years and I suspect you may

459
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:12,760
be correct about that the same cannot be

460
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:15,600
said for the Prime Minister surely uh

461
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:17,440
she wanted an election to strengthen her

462
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:21,080
hand in the brexit

463
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:23,200
negotiations uh and lost she lost the

464
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:26,840
election Corbin didn't entirely win it

465
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:29,640
but she lost it uh and now she's easy

466
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:32,120
meet for the European governments and

467
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:34,720
the commission the Tories will have to

468
00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:36,360
replace us surely well I think there's

469
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:39,039
two things to say one is that your

470
00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:40,640
analysis is correct she lost and there's

471
00:19:39,039 --> 00:19:43,440
no getting away from the fact that she

472
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:45,520
went into this election with an overall

473
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:48,679
majority and she emerge from it without

474
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:51,440
one um whether Mr Corbin won as Emily

475
00:19:48,679 --> 00:19:53,640
thornbery seems to imagine uh or not is

476
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:56,320
really not the issue for her there are

477
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:58,159
many Tor MPS who hurt there are many

478
00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:00,000
Tory MPS who hold her personally

479
00:19:58,159 --> 00:20:02,520
responsible and frankly it's hard to

480
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:05,200
dodge that bullet and therefore she's

481
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:07,520
not staying because they love her she's

482
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:10,120
staying for the moment because of the

483
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:13,159
absence of an obvious successor uh

484
00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:16,280
because of the real worry that if we

485
00:20:13,159 --> 00:20:18,159
change leaders again to soon this begins

486
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,960
to look really like Panic the Tories

487
00:20:18,159 --> 00:20:22,039
have always said to be pretty ruthless

488
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,440
about changing their leaders and we are

489
00:20:22,039 --> 00:20:25,640
we tend to get on with the job if we

490
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:29,000
think it needs doing I don't see that

491
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:32,799
happening early personally I think that

492
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:35,919
unless there's another of those events

493
00:20:32,799 --> 00:20:38,600
like the Dreadful business at grel Tower

494
00:20:35,919 --> 00:20:41,559
that can so destabilize any government

495
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:43,520
any local Authority as that did and

496
00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:45,000
understandably did if there are more

497
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,919
events like that then it's possible that

498
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,600
she'll have to go very quickly but I

499
00:20:46,919 --> 00:20:52,200
suspect that absent that she could well

500
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:54,720
be there for a year and possibly two so

501
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:57,480
I don't see her personally surviving

502
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:59,520
longer than a couple of years but I'd be

503
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:02,600
surprised if she went earlier unless

504
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:05,120
some other shock emerges which really do

505
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:08,200
demand an instant change well uh as Mr

506
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:10,480
McMillan said events events deby I've

507
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:12,760
used that phrase so often it's not what

508
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,840
you plan it's what smacks you on the ear

509
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:17,120
yes it's what you don't expect as

510
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:20,000
McMillan also said it's not one damn

511
00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:22,320
thing it's one damn thing after another

512
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:24,799
and we had three terrorist attacks in

513
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:27,600
the course of the campaign and now we've

514
00:21:24,799 --> 00:21:30,080
had this horrific incident at uh

515
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:34,840
Grenville I wish had more time to go

516
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:37,919
into that but let me give you uh a

517
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:41,080
suitable alternative David Davis a

518
00:21:37,919 --> 00:21:43,600
highly principled man uh a Libertarian

519
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:46,400
man a man that stood up for Liberty and

520
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:48,960
in fact uh sacrificed his first front

521
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:51,679
bench career over that a man from a

522
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:54,760
workingclass background Council house

523
00:21:51,679 --> 00:21:57,480
single parent upbringing a soldier who

524
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:59,159
can strangle a man with piano wire with

525
00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,760
his own bare hands

526
00:21:59,159 --> 00:22:06,240
not bad if you're fighting Isis and

527
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:10,000
Al-Qaeda and a solid brexit man why

528
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:12,400
wouldn't the Tories go for someone like

529
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:15,200
that my view is that in a couple of

530
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,799
years time they very probably will what

531
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,840
I think they've got to do is to make

532
00:22:16,799 --> 00:22:22,400
sure that Boris Johnson who having been

533
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:26,200
by Far and Away the runaway certainty to

534
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:28,679
lead the party then stabbed in the front

535
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:31,120
by Michael Gove to whom I would would

536
00:22:28,679 --> 00:22:34,799
personally award a hereditary dukedom

537
00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:37,120
for his services to our nation um then

538
00:22:34,799 --> 00:22:38,880
later you know discovered actually not

539
00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:41,799
to be quite as amusing when he has to

540
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:44,200
have a serious job to do still as

541
00:22:41,799 --> 00:22:46,760
evidence from a uh from a interview he

542
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:49,360
gave Only Yesterday hardly our most

543
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:51,360
skilled interview E I think we have to

544
00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:52,640
just get to the point where the party's

545
00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:55,520
membership

546
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:58,559
recognize that somebody like David Davis

547
00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:02,279
is a far better bet than Boris Johnson

548
00:22:58,559 --> 00:23:04,679
you know that if the result of the last

549
00:23:02,279 --> 00:23:06,720
maril election had the last uh

550
00:23:04,679 --> 00:23:08,840
leadership election with the Tory party

551
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:11,720
had been that Theresa May and Boris

552
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:14,960
Johnson both went to the party's

553
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:18,120
membership to decide who should lead us

554
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:20,720
Theresa would have got 70% of the MPS

555
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:23,279
Boris would get 70% of the membership

556
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:25,640
it's reminiscent ironically of how

557
00:23:23,279 --> 00:23:27,400
Jeremy became leader of the labor party

558
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,520
whatever his colleagues fought in

559
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:32,320
Parliament the me ship out there said

560
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:35,039
this is the man we want we've got to in

561
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:37,559
a sense let the next year or so

562
00:23:35,039 --> 00:23:39,919
transpire in which I think David Davis's

563
00:23:37,559 --> 00:23:42,240
qualities will come to the four and he

564
00:23:39,919 --> 00:23:44,919
will be in my view the pretty obvious

565
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,960
successor to Mrs may but it will have to

566
00:23:44,919 --> 00:23:49,600
be on the basis that by then the party

567
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:52,200
is no longer uh you know longing for the

568
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:54,760
man who they say young people you know

569
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:57,720
will uh you know somehow engage with I

570
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:59,720
think engage with laughing if I were a

571
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:03,559
supporter of David Davis I'd be

572
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:06,240
dispatching His Radio 4 near-death

573
00:24:03,559 --> 00:24:09,039
experience uh Boris Johnson's near-death

574
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:11,640
experience I'd be Distributing it widely

575
00:24:09,039 --> 00:24:14,400
in the party absolutely Steve Norris is

576
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:16,400
always pleasure to talk to you about

577
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,760
these great events thanks for coming on

578
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,760
board the

579
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:24,360
sputnick and now it's your turn to tell

580
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:27,559
us what you think through the portals of

581
00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:29,960
social media what's rattling gri a lot a

582
00:24:27,559 --> 00:24:33,039
lot but from it I can tell you that Ryan

583
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:35,720
says the left is United blism is dead

584
00:24:33,039 --> 00:24:38,480
and Corbin looks like a PM in Waiting

585
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:42,240
May is being held hostage by DP and the

586
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:44,600
backbenchers untenable whereas Wayne Max

587
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:46,960
for Palestine says during the general

588
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:49,520
election mainstream media and the Tories

589
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:51,799
lambasted Corbin for his attempts at the

590
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:55,320
peace process yet they jump straight

591
00:24:51,799 --> 00:24:58,640
into bed with the dup #

592
00:24:55,320 --> 00:25:01,480
Hypocrites well I must at the risk of

593
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:04,679
reigning on the parade of supporters of

594
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:06,799
Jeremy Corbin agree with Steve Norris

595
00:25:04,679 --> 00:25:09,679
it's by no means certain that this

596
00:25:06,799 --> 00:25:13,039
Parliament will not run its term for the

597
00:25:09,679 --> 00:25:17,159
reasons that he mentioned and also the

598
00:25:13,039 --> 00:25:21,679
ticking clock of Jeremy Corbin in 5

599
00:25:17,159 --> 00:25:25,120
years time will be 73 years old uh he's

600
00:25:21,679 --> 00:25:28,760
a young uh old man but people will start

601
00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:30,159
to say he is too old for the job and

602
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,720
that's all the tweets we've got time for

603
00:25:30,159 --> 00:25:34,880
today which alas means that's the end of

604
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:37,240
the show but stay in touch with us on

605
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:40,159
Facebook Sputnik on Russia Today and

606
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:42,480
Instagram and Twitter rtor Sputnik well

607
00:25:40,159 --> 00:25:47,080
it's goodbye from me gatri and from me

608
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:47,080
George Galloway it's been marless

609
00:25:50,770 --> 00:25:53,819
[Music]